NIWA Community Forums
NIWA Community => Wiki References => Topic started by: FlyingRagnar on May 12, 2011, 01:20:53 PM
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What web hosts do NIWA wikis use?
Over on Dragon Quest Wiki, we are now using hostgator (http://www.hostgator.com). I chose it because of the ability to have access to a shell login (although it is a jailed shell). I did have problems installing MediaWiki, however. They have a quota on the amount of time any one site can use the CPU on shared servers. The installer seemed to have problems finishing the install because of this. I managed to get things sorted out manually, but I don't envy having to do it somewhere else. I would expect that these sort of quotas are typical of shared server setups.
Do most NIWA sites do an install using the web installer? Or using the command line version?
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I don't run a NIWA wiki, but I am working on some wikis of my own. I use BlueHost, which I consider to be fairly reliable and not too restrictive. The servers provide what you need to run wikis. BlueHost has a provider that can automatically install wikis, or you can manually install them by uploading the files via FTP to the server and doing it that way.
I do know that Fire Emblem Wiki uses BlueHost as its provider as well.
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Shared hosting can have it's downfalls.
Just to make sure shared hosting is going to be HostGator, BlueHost, so on so forth. Unless you have a VPS/Dedicated Server with one of them. If you don't know what those are you probably don't have them.
The cons are:
Limited Resources
- You can't edit stuff that may be crucial. (PHP Config) some hosts may allow minimal configuration though.
- If your site is found to be using a lot of system resources which mediawiki isn't shy about your webhost may e-mail you basically saying you need to upgrade to a higher package, I think this is what happened with Wikirby?
- Slow, often these websites can be found to be slow due to limited resources and others using the same server for hosting, and who knows what they are doing.
Pros:
- Easy installation with Cpanel/Fantastico or something similar.
- Support. Some hosts will offer support in regards with your site.
- Inexpensive
If you know linux and how to make/manage a web server from scratch then and have money you are willing to spend then VPS/Dedicated is probably the way to go.
Cons:
- You have to install everything: php5, curl, apache, mySQL, phpMyAdmin, ftp, and anything else you may need. This can be tedious especially if this is your first time managing a VPS or Dedicated server.
- No easy and fast installs of php scripts. Unless your host offers CPanel with Fantastico or something similar or you dish out $500-$1000 for the stuff you are going to to need to download the files, upload them to the server. Create a mySQL database and install the php software yourself. This isn't really hard but can be tedious.
- Costly. /Good/ dedicated servers can go above $150 a month while VPSes can go for around $20-$100 a month.
Pros:
- Full access to your stuff. This can be both be good and bad. Bad if you mess something up, you will have to fix it. Good as in there are almost no limits to what you can do (as long as they follow your VPS/Dedi provider's AuP.
- More resources. You get a better share of system resources to yourself and your VPS. With Dedicated Servers you are the only one using that server so all those system resources go to you. VPSes can be seen as "shared" hosting but are almost always going to be better than normal non VPS shared hosting.
- Root access both VPS and Dedicated servers give you root control, or administrator privileges. This means you can control any part of the server that you want.
StarfyWiki.org is running on my WebVPS.
I can't really think of anything else to say but maybe some of the other guys can give some of their thoughts...
If you are wondering I own 2 Linodes, http://linode.com
1 Linode 512 (Runs IRC and a couple of IRC related stuff)
1 Linode 767 (Runs all my hosted websites including StarfyWiki.org)
Both are extremely stable and speeds are great.
Support is probably one of the best out there in the VPS market, you /will/ get a response to any ticket within 10 minutes.
They also recently just announced native IPv6 support, for those computer geeks out there.
They offer scripts that will help you setup a web server with apache, mySQL, php, etc.
Can be used to host minecraft and other gameservers!
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Great post Tappy. While I love the possibility of not sharing a server, I'm not sure it will ever be financially viable for many of the NIWA wikis or the Dragon Quest Wiki. I don't even put ads on our wiki because I simply don't think there will ever be enough revenue to be worthwhile. As a result of the shared server, there are definitely times when a page load seems to stall for no reason. I attribute this to the shared server getting slammed by some other site.
Our wiki was moved from Wikia, so now that I have access to viewing the monthly visit stats, I can make some better judgements going forward based on our visit numbers. Moving from Wikia was a pain in the @#$, because I had no access to the server at all. They release free database dumps on request, but were using an older version of MediaWiki than the one hostgator would auto-install. So I ended up installing the older version of MediaWiki myself (pain), then importing the database (more pain), then upgrading MediaWiki (even more pain).
Then for the media, I had to write a script to scrape all the images and import them into the new wiki. I'm sure than any future host changes will HAVE to be easier than this one was. But we are months beyond that now and everything has been pretty good.
Shell access is pretty important because I know of no other way to run maintenance scripts. I don't think there is a way to do that unless you can install something to the server (probably can't).
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you can install something (http://freshmeat.net/projects/phpshell), it just takes a little work.
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Great post Tappy. While I love the possibility of not sharing a server, I'm not sure it will ever be financially viable for many of the NIWA wikis or the Dragon Quest Wiki. I don't even put ads on our wiki because I simply don't think there will ever be enough revenue to be worthwhile. As a result of the shared server, there are definitely times when a page load seems to stall for no reason. I attribute this to the shared server getting slammed by some other site.
Our wiki was moved from Wikia, so now that I have access to viewing the monthly visit stats, I can make some better judgements going forward based on our visit numbers. Moving from Wikia was a pain in the @#$, because I had no access to the server at all. They release free database dumps on request, but were using an older version of MediaWiki than the one hostgator would auto-install. So I ended up installing the older version of MediaWiki myself (pain), then importing the database (more pain), then upgrading MediaWiki (even more pain).
Then for the media, I had to write a script to scrape all the images and import them into the new wiki. I'm sure than any future host changes will HAVE to be easier than this one was. But we are months beyond that now and everything has been pretty good.
Shell access is pretty important because I know of no other way to run maintenance scripts. I don't think there is a way to do that unless you can install something to the server (probably can't).
I believe there is a MediaWiki extension (http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:MaintenanceShell) that allows you to run some of the maintenance scripts. :)
Nookipedia also uses Linode as a host, and we have not had any problems with them so far. I can also back up Tappy's claim that tickets are always answered in less than ten minutes.
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I've forgotten but with Linode they have stackscripts which can help you setup a webserver 100% easier.
http://www.linode.com/stackscripts/
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To answer your other questions:
Do most NIWA sites do an install using the web installer? Or using the command line version?
When Lylat Wiki (http://starfoxwiki.org/Lylat_Wiki) and WikiBound (http://wikibound.info/WikiBound) were first set up, i had manually installed them on a BlueHost shared server.
For Lylat Wiki, We moved it over to dreamhost, once our webmaster thought we were ready, and he could support it financially.
For WikiBound, we moved to a friend of the wiki's, Zelda Temple (http://zelda-temple.net/), owner of Fire Emblem Wiki (http://fireemblemwiki.info/Main_Page), webspace on Bluehost.
I am currently looking into the possibility of hosting again, as i would like to offer hosting like i have done so previously. One of the options i am considering doing is a VPN, possibly with dreamhost.
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From people I've known that have used a VPS from Dream host, website loads were extremely sluggish.
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From people I've known that have used a VPS from Dream host, website loads were extremely sluggish.
good to know. Is there any VPSs you recommend?
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How much are you willing to pay per month?
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starting at $20 a month, till i get a hire paying job.
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starting at $20 a month, till i get a hire paying job.
Linode is a great VPS to go with in that case. Just install either the LAMP or LEMP stackscript and you'll be good to go! :)
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starting at $20 a month, till i get a hire paying job.
Linode is a great VPS to go with in that case. Just install either the LAMP or LEMP stackscript and you'll be good to go! :)
This
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starting at $20 a month, till i get a hire paying job.
Linode is a great VPS to go with in that case. Just install either the LAMP or LEMP stackscript and you'll be good to go! :)
This
sweet. Thank you guys for the recommendation.
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Tappy. did you say the VPS had slow loads? (For Dreamhost, I mean.) If Dreamhost is going to cause problems, I'd rather start looking for a new company now. I know Lylat Wiki will eventually need that upgrade. I'm just dreading the day because I know it's gonna be costly >.<
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from my experience the dreamhost servers seem sluggish.
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Thanks to all for posting good info. For those of us on cheap hosting, it seems like linode is the best choice for improvement. Unfortunately, most cheap hosting costs between $5-7 per month; That means a price increase of 300%. I can't imagine ad revenue can be that good, so are you simply paying out of pocket for most of that?
I'm not complaining; Good web hosting is gonna cost something. :)
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I pay $40 out of my own pocket each month for Starfy Wiki and a few of other websites, none of which have ADs on any of them. Although I am capable of paying the $40 on my own, for now, having a bill of $59 (I have two linodes, a 512 and a 1024, my websites and starfywiki are on the 1024) every month not including gas, personal stuff, medical bills, and other things it would be nice to be able to pull some revenue somehow to at least pay for a little bit of the $40 a month. ADs can help with this but I find that ADs don't necessarily always pull that much $$ in unless you completely bomb the place with them all over, and no one likes ADs as is.
My only way to really pull revenue is to either sell hosting or ask for donations, and if someone where to donate it's probably going to be a one time thing.
In other words (TLDR):
Don't jump into getting a VPS if you know you are financially unstable. Make sure that you are in good standing and are able to pay the bills, if you can pay for a couple months at a time that's even better.
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I use a dedi. I've attempted to host Wikimon on shared (got told to go away), then on VPSes (kept hitting limits), and then a dedi. We even had to upgrade the dedi because Wikimon kept killing the server. :(
The server costs $160 a month, and I share the cost with 3 guys.
But it seems to be working; I have GSU and Wikimon running fine. And have toyed with the idea of doing another wiki, but not sure what for~
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I have been really annoyed with hostgator as of late. dragon-quest.org seems to be slow all the time. I'm really starting to contemplate moving to a better host. I just don't envy having to everything again.
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I've done some research and performance tuning. The hostgator support people tell me that my shared server is not being overloaded. It seems to be significant that hostgator offers no PHP accelerator such as APC.
So, for those of you on BlueHost and Linode, did you manually install some sort of caching accelerator? I'm experimenting with the file caching mechanism, but I'm skeptical that it will help.
What are your wiki's config settings to improve performance?
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So, for those of you on BlueHost and Linode, did you manually install some sort of caching accelerator? I'm experimenting with the file caching mechanism, but I'm skeptical that it will help.
What are your wiki's config settings to improve performance?
Nookipedia uses APC for opcode caching as well as the file cache, and it works really well. APC is really easy to install, and it works almost automatically. You may need to go in and tune some of the settings for your server, but otherwise it works like a charm and really speeds things up. :)
You may also want to check out the MediaWiki guide to improving performance, if you haven't already: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Performance_tuning
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This is what the guy that does the technical stuff said about us...
We have xcache for opcode+object cache configured to use 16M per process of php (we run php on fastcgi). MediaWiki is also configured to use static page caching.
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If you have xCache installed, you may be able to use it for Object caching. See this page (http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Cache#Object_caching) for more information.
Essentially, you just change $wgMainCacheType = CACHE_NONE; to $wgMainCacheType = CACHE_ACCEL; in LocalSettings.php. If you notice a speed increase, that means it's working. You may want to ask your tech guy about it first though. :)
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Ok, things are getting a bit clearer now. Yes, I've been reading the Mediawiki pages on performance tuning. Too bad pretty much all of the options are not available at my current host. :(
This pretty much sums up hostgator's policy on PHP accelerators:
http://support.hostgator.com/articles/pre-sales-policies/is-it-possible-to-install-ioncube-php-accelerator-on-shared-server
I put all of my jobs queue on a cron a long time ago. I enabled file caching, but that really only helps visitors to the site, not logged in users. I turned on logging, but have yet to see any thing of significance. I guess I could post the log file here. I haven't tried using the mediawiki profiler either.
I seem to get only intermittent delays though. Sometimes the pages load fast, sometimes really slow. Hmmm.
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I've never seen a shared host offer a PHP accelerator, so I'm sure there's some technical reason as to why they can't offer them.
I seem to get only intermittent delays though. Sometimes the pages load fast, sometimes really slow. Hmmm.
That's pretty typical for a shared host. Because you're sharing the same server with other customers (see below), your load times depend not only on your own traffic, but on the traffic of everyone else as well. So if another site on the same server is experiencing a huge increase in traffic, your site performance will suffer as well. We used to have this issue with Nookipedia, which is why I eventually moved us over to a VPS at Linode. Needless to say, our site's speed is much faster now.
I ran a reverse IP lookup for your wiki, and found that the following sites are also hosted on the same server:
[spoiler="List of Sites on your Server"](http://imageftw.com/uploads/20110804/Screen%20Shot%202011-08-04%20at%2012.51.16%20PM.png)[/spoiler]
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Nice. Thanks for posting that. I didn't realize you could so easily do a look up. All those scented soy candles must be slowing down the wiki hehe. I've been messing with the profiler, which is pretty nice. It tells the same story: most page loads are less than half a second, others can be 2-7 seconds.
For those of you using static file caching for visitors, did you configure your mod_rewrite to go directly to the static pages? It is described here:
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:$wgFileCacheDepth (http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:$wgFileCacheDepth)
I'm definitely considering a jump to Linode in the future. All of the flexibility it offers is really appealing.
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Hostgator blows. I checked today and we are sharing with 93 other sites. We have had lots of random spikes in performance because of this. I'm going to contact them to complain, but overall it just sucks.
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Bump.
So, as of today Dragon Quest Wiki is still hosted by hostgator. A month or two ago they migrated to new hardware. I really haven't noticed performance issues as much as 2 years ago when I originally created this thread. However, doing maintenance and other stuff is still a pain because of access restrictions.
I assume there are still other NIWA wikis running on shared servers? I wondered if there might be interest in getting a Linode that maybe a few of the smaller/less active wikis could share together. Seems like this would make things easier with regards to making sure all the wikis are up, the upgrade process, shared costs, etc. As NIWA moves forward, it seems like it would make sense to have some of the smaller wikis band together.
How many wiki could be supported via a 1GB Linode?
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There is in many ways already a bandwagon server for NIWA wikis. Well, multiple really.
Fire Emblem Wiki, Wikirby, Lylat Wiki, and Wikibound are all hosted in conjunction.
Metroid Wiki and Strategy Wiki are hosted together.
Nintendo Wiki and F-Zero Wiki are hosted together.
Donkey Kong Wki, Super Mario Wiki, Smash Wiki, and Pikipedia/Pikmin Fanon are also hosted together.
lol, As you see a whole lot of NIWA are hosted on a server where another wiki is as well.
The only NIWA wikis that I think might consider this kind of a deal would be Starfy Wiki and Icaruspedia. Everyone else is pretty well situated.
Also, to answer your question, I would probably stick 3 wikis on a 1GB Linode, to be safe (Mediawiki recommends 256 mb per install)
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Well, I guessed it was not an original idea. :) It makes a lot of sense.
So, by that accounting that leaves the following wikis as independent:
Bulbapedia
Dragon Quest
Icaruspedia
Nookipedia
Starfy
Wars
Zelda
I would assume Bulbapedia and probably Zelda would stay where they are due to volume of traffic. Some of the others could definitely be considered for sharing a Linode or similar situation. Right now, I pay for all the fees related to the Dragon Quest wiki. The hosting isn't much (about $5 a month), but it doesn't make sense for me to pay $20 a month for a 1GB Linode that the wiki would only need 1/3 of. Splitting that cost 3 ways to be about $7 per month would be great however.
I really don't know how this would happen, but I'm open to the possibilities if others are interested and have some knowledge of how it might be done.
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Both Nookipedia and Wars Wiki are a part of a larger fansite. (even if Wars Wiki is abandoned) Which is why I didn't include them in my above suggestions. and Bulbapedia and Zelda Wiki are obviously out just due to sheer volume of traffic (Bulba is hosted on one of the most powerful options there is, and it needs it. lol) Also, GSU is situated well, so we are good as we are. lol.
However, another thing to be aware of, is that a Linode server does not include cpanel. You will need to buy a license to use cpanel, if you so desire, in addition to the host its self. (Pricing may vary)
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Anything but Wikia seems to be the consensus