Author Topic: Donkey Kong Wiki problem  (Read 12829 times)

Offline Manga Maniac

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Re: Donkey Kong Wiki problem
« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2010, 09:37:50 AM »
Technically Wario and Yoshi are also their own franchises that Spun-off Mario, out of those two Wario is the most successful spin-off wise and differentiates the most from Mario but I don't think a Wariowiki would be necessary. Of course DK is bigger than Wario/Yoshi and basically in the SNES days with DKC, DK had gotten away from Mario's Shadow only to have that taken away after Rare left and Nintendo kept incorporating DK more and more with Mario, hopefully with DKC Returns Donkey Kong will become a household name outside of the Mario franchise like it was in the 80s with the Arcade game and 90s with DKC. Its definitely going to be tough for the DKWiki to be its own entity though I certainly wish them the best.

It is my personal opinion that Yoshi and Wario of more sub-franchises. Donkey Kong, however, is its own franchise, that nowadays only overlaps with Mario in the occasional crossover and Mario Kart.

Ask yourself this, would you call Donkey Kong a "Mario" character or a "Donkey Kong" character. Now ask yourself whether you would call Yoshi a "Mario" character, or a "Yoshi" character. Is Wario a "Mario" character, or a "Wario" character?

It doesn't help that Mario appears in all the Yoshi games, and Baby Mario made an appearance in Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time.

Plus, you could argue that Yoshi and Wario do deserve a wiki.

Offline sdp

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Re: Donkey Kong Wiki problem
« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2010, 04:08:14 PM »
It is my personal opinion that Yoshi and Wario of more sub-franchises. Donkey Kong, however, is its own franchise, that nowadays only overlaps with Mario in the occasional crossover and Mario Kart.

Ask yourself this, would you call Donkey Kong a "Mario" character or a "Donkey Kong" character. Now ask yourself whether you would call Yoshi a "Mario" character, or a "Yoshi" character. Is Wario a "Mario" character, or a "Wario" character?

It doesn't help that Mario appears in all the Yoshi games, and Baby Mario made an appearance in Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time.

Plus, you could argue that Yoshi and Wario do deserve a wiki.

Its a bit more convoluted, Donkey Kong is the first game and Mario spun-off and became the more recognizable part and all DK was known as the game that launched Mario. When DKC came out it set itself apart from Mario and was able to be seen as a separate brand from Mario, of course DK64 failed to get people on fire like DKC did and after that Rare was sold and Nintendo tried to keep the DK franchise alive but they were all failed tries (hey I liked them!), so for the past decade DK has been seen mostly as just "part of Mario" instead of its own brand. DKCR aims to change this but who knows how successful it'll be. The point is while Mario spun-off DK it became the bigger name and while DK has tried to brand itself different its still part of the "marioverse" so to speak.

Now Yoshi and Wario are another story. Yoshi is the less successful of the three, however I definitely consider his game a 'brand' in a similar vein to DK. Yoshi's Island was the game that spun him off and even though it was called "Super Mario" for name recognition it is not considered a Mario game, the 25th anniversary of SMB pretty much cemented the fact. The success of Yoshi's Island made him his own 'franchise' headlining Yoshi's Story with no Mario at all and established Shy Guys as his rogues canonizing SMB USA in the process. Sadly Yoshi hasn't been wildly successful so we haven't been able to see a lot of the Yoshi brand separate from Mario though theres plenty of Yoshi games, don't forget in the original SSB he also got his own icon and didn't have to share with Mario.

Now Wario is a different story, his first appearance was in Mario Land 2 and spun-off with Mario Land 3 which is basically just a Wario game with with Mario slapped in the title to guarantee the game would sell like SMW in Yoshi's Island in case the Wario/Yoshi brands weren't big enough. Since then Wario has been its own entity pretty much only crossovering in party games, in some ways its been better than DK in setting its own name separate from Mario, especially with the Warioware series. Super Princess Peach and Luigi's Mansion could be seen as trying to launch them as their own brand which failed.

Anyways the original point was Wario is as much of a separate entity from Mario as DK and even Yoshi is. Both Yoshi and Mario have mostly been carried by the Mario franchise in recent years though which makes it hard to justify giving them their own wikis. Yoshi definitely can't handle it, its too small and Wario like DK is already covered extremely well by the Mariowiki. Wario may have successfully spun-off and Mario may be the spin-off of DK but Mario is the bigger name and the connections of Wario/DK to Mario allowed them to be covered by Mariowiki and they are already covered well.

Yes, we should let them develop before coming to any conclusions. I think a problem arises only if the Super Mario Wiki covers Donkey Kong so heavily that there is nothing DK Wiki can do to surpass them in coverage (for example, if Super Mario Wiki has covered every single thing involving Donkey Kong).

Simply, the coverage issue will grow as the wikis do. In my opinion, to delay a decision would be unwise. It's best to tackle the issue before it gets too big. There are a couple options out there - a merge as equals, an absorption of DK Wiki, an end to DK coverage on SMW, etc.

This is a decision that the staff of both wikis will have to discuss. In the end, it is up to the wikis what they do, but it would be of great benefit to at least consider our opinions.

Well the problem is Mariowiki covers the franchise of DK so well already, there is not enough for DK Wiki to differentiate from it, like I said I hope they do but I don't think they can. Like I explained earlier in the post, Mario may be the spin-off of DK but Mario is the bigger name and DK is technically part of the same 'universe' which is why it has to be covered by the Mariowiki. DK re-made its own name as a separate franchise with DKC series but after that its just basically clinged back to Mario making it even more integral for Mariowiki to cover it. Theres really not much for the DKWiki to cover that Mariowiki hasn't, most of it is all overlap. Now technically Mariowiki should leave DK exclusively to the DKWiki but I don't think its fair for Mariowiki to give up so much of their hardwork.

Offline KidIcarus

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Re: Donkey Kong Wiki problem
« Reply #22 on: November 13, 2010, 04:24:45 PM »
Technically Wario and Yoshi are also their own franchises that Spun-off Mario, out of those two Wario is the most successful spin-off wise and differentiates the most from Mario but I don't think a Wariowiki would be necessary. Of course DK is bigger than Wario/Yoshi and basically in the SNES days with DKC, DK had gotten away from Mario's Shadow only to have that taken away after Rare left and Nintendo kept incorporating DK more and more with Mario, hopefully with DKC Returns Donkey Kong will become a household name outside of the Mario franchise like it was in the 80s with the Arcade game and 90s with DKC. Its definitely going to be tough for the DKWiki to be its own entity though I certainly wish them the best.

It is my personal opinion that Yoshi and Wario of more sub-franchises. Donkey Kong, however, is its own franchise, that nowadays only overlaps with Mario in the occasional crossover and Mario Kart.

Ask yourself this, would you call Donkey Kong a "Mario" character or a "Donkey Kong" character. Now ask yourself whether you would call Yoshi a "Mario" character, or a "Yoshi" character. Is Wario a "Mario" character, or a "Wario" character?

It doesn't help that Mario appears in all the Yoshi games, and Baby Mario made an appearance in Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time.

Plus, you could argue that Yoshi and Wario do deserve a wiki.

I'm gonna have to disagree. My opinion is that Donkey Kong, Wario, and Yoshi are all sub-franchises. In fact, contrary to what you suggested, I think Wario is the most deserving of a wiki. With the rise of the WarioWare series, a wiki could potentially go over each and every minigame. However, Super Mario Wiki even covers something so trivial to the Super Mario franchise as that. I don't condemn SMW for encroaching on other franchises (it is still part of the Mario universe); rather, I applaud them for their extensive coverage.

Over time, Super Mario Wiki will naturally engulf each and every topic regarding Donkey Kong. Not only is it their right, it's their duty as a Super Mario encyclopedia. Now, DK Wiki is still free to write their articles; just don't be upset a couple years from now when all your work is overshadowed.

Offline Tucayo

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Re: Donkey Kong Wiki problem
« Reply #23 on: November 13, 2010, 04:39:45 PM »
There is no problem, as Steve said

Offline Manga Maniac

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Re: Donkey Kong Wiki problem
« Reply #24 on: November 13, 2010, 04:46:28 PM »
I think Wario is the most deserving of a wiki. With the rise of the WarioWare series, a wiki could potentially go over each and every minigame. However, Super Mario Wiki even covers something so trivial to the Super Mario franchise as that. I don't condemn SMW for encroaching on other franchises (it is still part of the Mario universe); rather, I applaud them for their extensive coverage.

Over time, Super Mario Wiki will naturally engulf each and every topic regarding Donkey Kong. Not only is it their right, it's their duty as a Super Mario encyclopedia. Now, DK Wiki is still free to write their articles; just don't be upset a couple years from now when all your work is overshadowed.

I actually wouldn't disagree with a Wario Wiki. You could argue that all wikis are pointless and we should just have one big Nintendo Wiki (if you ignore the fact that the database would implode, and all that...), that covers every character, every minigame, etc.

Also, who is this Steve?

Offline Tucayo

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Re: Donkey Kong Wiki problem
« Reply #25 on: November 13, 2010, 04:48:23 PM »
porplemontage

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Re: Donkey Kong Wiki problem
« Reply #26 on: November 13, 2010, 05:01:34 PM »
Speaking of Wario, maybe we can try and see if the WarioWiki wants to go indy.







Offline porplemontage

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Re: Donkey Kong Wiki problem
« Reply #27 on: November 13, 2010, 06:21:28 PM »
There's a reason I made sure DKWiki was okay with the fact that MarioWiki would not change what it covers, because of the overlap. But it's still great for them because they get to continue doing what they were doing anyway, but with the support of NIWA and friends. We tried splitting up the MarioWiki once, and we're just not doing that again. A Wario or Yoshi wiki would be given the same disclaimer, and if they are fine with it, I wouldn't object to adding them.

The Super Mario Wiki covers Smash Bros. too, but if you want to browse the wiki just for Smash Bros. info it's tough because that's not how the wiki is set up. SmashWiki works because everything is based around Smash Bros., and the same goes for DKWiki or any other potential, more-focused wiki.
Steve

Offline Manga Maniac

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Re: Donkey Kong Wiki problem
« Reply #28 on: November 13, 2010, 07:32:12 PM »
I question the need to go into such detail on Smash Bros. on Super Mario Wiki.

Offline KidIcarus

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Re: Donkey Kong Wiki problem
« Reply #29 on: November 13, 2010, 08:00:57 PM »
Super Mario Wiki covers all things related to Super Mario. Super Smash Bros is heavily influenced by Super Mario... just look at the name.

Offline Manga Maniac

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Re: Donkey Kong Wiki problem
« Reply #30 on: November 13, 2010, 08:14:43 PM »
I agree that SMW should have articles about each Smash Bros. game, but SSB isn't a Mario franchise, so SMW really doesn't need to cover each and every character.

Offline porplemontage

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Re: Donkey Kong Wiki problem
« Reply #31 on: November 13, 2010, 08:37:40 PM »
The Super Mario Wiki covers the Mario series and any series in close proximity. That's what we've always done and it's what we love to do. So you could argue the name is a bit of a misnomer, but Mario is the main series from which we branch off from, and we're not changing it to Mario Wiki Plus Friends of Mario (although that name is kind of amusing). So you'll have to think of it as more than a single series wiki, and that's not going to change, since we certainly didn't join NIWA to cover less.
Steve

Offline Manga Maniac

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Re: Donkey Kong Wiki problem
« Reply #32 on: November 13, 2010, 08:42:16 PM »
Even if there wasn't a Smash Bros. Wiki, I still wouldn't like having every character (such as Young Link) on the wiki just because he's part of Smash Bros.

SSB is a franchise that just has Mario in it. It is not a Mario franchise, or anything like that.

Of course, that's just my opinion.

Offline Miles of SmashWiki

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Re: Donkey Kong Wiki problem
« Reply #33 on: November 13, 2010, 08:53:19 PM »
Even if there wasn't a Smash Bros. Wiki, I still wouldn't like having every character (such as Young Link) on the wiki just because he's part of Smash Bros.

SSB is a franchise that just has Mario in it. It is not a Mario franchise, or anything like that.

Of course, that's just my opinion.

+1

I'm irritated to some degree by MarioWiki claiming Smash as a Mario spin-off when it's no such thing.


Srsbsns is always lurking (?_?)

Offline porplemontage

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Re: Donkey Kong Wiki problem
« Reply #34 on: November 13, 2010, 08:58:12 PM »
You should read my last post--I just said that we purposefully cover non-Mario series. We don't claim Smash Bros. to be a spin-off, it's just one of the series we choose to cover. Here's out coverage policy; Smash is classified as a crossover series.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2010, 09:03:53 PM by porplemontage »
Steve

Offline BrandedOne

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Re: Donkey Kong Wiki problem
« Reply #35 on: November 13, 2010, 09:42:49 PM »
I understand the reasoning behind the choices you've made in your coverage policy, but I personally think it's a little overkill.  For example, if I were looking for information on Banjo-Kazooie, Mariowiki wouldn't be the first place I would look.  On that note, I wouldn't even go to DKwiki looking for Banjo-Kazooie or Conker info.  I would go to a Banjo-Kazooie wiki for information about Banjo-Kazooie.

I just now found out that both Banjo and Mario exist in the same "universe", but I doubt that many people know that, considering Banjo made a very small appearance in one game that isn't closely tied to the Mario franchise at all.  The Banjo series is, let me get this right, a spinoff (Banjo series) of a spinoff (Diddy Kong Racing) of a spinoff (Donkey Kong series), with the main series being Mario.  That's pretty distant, if you ask me.

Let me also throw this out there.  If I were looking for information about Donkey Kong as he appeared in Donkey Kong Jungle Beat, I'd look at DKwiki.  If I were looking for information about Donkey Kong as he appeared in Mario Kart: Double Dash!!, I'd look at Mariowiki.  Just what makes sense from a personal standpoint.  You can cover all the information you want to, but I'd probably look at DKwiki or Smashwiki for information about those franchises rather than Mariowiki.

Offline Manga Maniac

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Re: Donkey Kong Wiki problem
« Reply #36 on: November 13, 2010, 09:45:17 PM »
Since its not doing any actual harm and the articles have clearly had work put into them, I'm not going to bother arguing that you should remove crossovers and such any longer.

I, though maybe not you or the rest of the SMW community, just think that stuff like Smash Bros., which isn't part of the actual Marioverse to my knowledge, is a bit unnecessary to go into such huge detail about.

EDIT: That isn't to say, I now agree with you, I just don't think that its worth arguing about.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2010, 10:00:39 PM by Manga Maniac »

Offline tacopill

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Re: Donkey Kong Wiki problem
« Reply #37 on: November 14, 2010, 12:28:53 AM »
the point is, Mario wiki covers any series heavily influenced by the Mario super-series.

* Super Smash Bros. is heavily influenced by Super Mario Series, given the amount of Items, levels, fighters and music that comes from it in comparison to any other series.
* Donkey Kong is included because historically, that's what has been done. If they change now, they would dishonor  over 5 years of contributors. If they would choose to move content to DK Wiki, that is their choice to make, not our to make them do so.







Offline Tucayo

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Re: Donkey Kong Wiki problem
« Reply #38 on: November 14, 2010, 03:27:49 AM »
Let me make this clear.

We get a lot of people complaining about this all the time. It has been this way for many years. We are not changing our coverage in any way

Offline BrandedOne

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Re: Donkey Kong Wiki problem
« Reply #39 on: November 14, 2010, 05:38:23 AM »
I don't expect you to.  You have certainly worked hard to get to where you are now, and it's certainly an amazing accomplishment.  I'm not trying to criticize Mariowiki, and I wasn't trying to complain about the coverage policy.  I applaud your efforts wherever they may be put, and I'm sorry if I said anything particularly offensive.  I was just trying to offer my own thoughts.  :-[ 
Mariowiki will forever be my #1 source for Mario information.  By that same token, Smashwiki will be my #1 source for Smash Bros. information, and DKwiki for DK info as well.  I do hope that this situation won't be considered a "problem" as it has been made out to be, and that we can all coexist peacefully.